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 End of an era (or is it?), General discussion - spoilers!
Jack Harkness
 Posted: Dec 26 2017, 02:17 PM
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Nica // Offline
25 posts
2169 years old
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See you in hell!
Children of Earth


So, here we go. The Christmas Special 2017 marks the end of an era for Doctor Who. New showrunner (thank God...), new Doctor, new companions. Someone on YouTube even pointed out the use of many famous themes in the latest Christmas Special, so maybe it's been the swan song for Murray Gold, too? I wouldn't know, I usually don't recognize themes. Shame on me. http://files.b1.jcink.com/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif

I do have high hopes for the upcoming seasons, and a wish. Only one wish really. Don't be scared. The latest seasons under Moffat, especially after Amy's and Rory's departure, felt like everyone was too scared to let things hurt. To make deaths, departures or simple goodbyes count for something. I remember Nine in The Doctor dances saying: "Give me a day like this. Give me this one. Just this once, everybody lives." It felt rare, special, because the Doctor sure as hell is used to days when hardly anyone lives. But if you repeat this 'everybody lives' thing too often, it cheapens the impact of every otherwise heart-wrenching moment. I cried when Clara left at the end of season 8, lying to the Doctor, so he could go back to Gallifrey. And the Doctor lying to her about finding Gallifrey. It was perfect. Then she came back in the next Christmas Special. http://files.b1.jcink.com/html/emoticons/blink.gif I cried again in Face the raven. Perfect again. Then the friggin' Time Lords saved her and she ran off. I'm sure you all know more examples like this. So, please, Chris Chibnall and whoever is working with you, risk something. Don't continue this way.

What do you think about the end of the Moffat era? Do you have the same complaints / wishes or do you prefer the hopeful 'everybody lives' way?

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The Doctor
 Posted: Dec 28 2017, 06:01 AM
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Doctauri // Offline
107 posts
Several Thousand years old
The Wind Bites Now
And All The World Is Grey
And I Am Alone Here. Alone.
Children of Gallifrey


Having survived the many cringe-inducing episodes of the RTD era - not to mention that I would rather watch ANY episode of the Moffat era as long as it meant I didn't have to see Rose devolving into a cardboard cutout of the main character and a mary-sure or (god forbid) Fear Her EVER again (seriously, if any episode EVER deserved to be lost...) I feel I'm not the best person to come to for criticism of Moffat. More than anything else I sympathize with the man - any time he tries to do something different; the fans have a nervous break down. Any time he tries to follow a theme - he's copying what's come before. Rory dies too much - Clara doesn't die enough - how could he kill Bill? Why didn't he kill Nardole? There's not enough drama in Doctor Who - there's too MUCH drama in Doctor Who - yada yada yada - hell! The sunglasses can't even be sonic - the Daleks can't be different colors - the Cybermen can't convert Time Lords without the internet exploding into a list of petitions and protests and charts detailing how Moffat rode off on their women and raped their horses.

Mean little noises - and as for 'everyone living' - ha... the death count of the Moffat era makes RTD look like a pansy http://files.b1.jcink.com/html/emoticons/tongue.gif people want Doctor Who to CHANGE - to become 'adult' and 'gritty' and 'edgy' - that's not what the show is about. They tried to do that with Six, Seven AND Eight... it killed two eras - and led to one era aborting at birth. If it hadn't been for the audio plays we'd never have KNOWN those Doctor's properly! There's grit - and edge - and fear - and 'adult' to be found in Doctor Who; but it's in the spin-offs. It's in Big Finish. It's in the Virgin New Adventures. It's in Torchwood... Doctor Who proper? The PROPER series? It's been many things - campy - crazy - gothic - action - spy thriller - mystery - it's been ALL those things... but it's ALWAYS been something children can watch. Families can watch. What people forget is - they've grown UP with the series... but that doesn't mean the series is going to grow up with them. Further, there are NEW children - new kids - NEW families coming in... for some people? This last series? That was the first one they've ever seen... every series has been a series that some fan - some kid - some FAMILY out there is seeing for the first time. That's what's special about Doctor Who - that's what makes Doctor Who unique - you can pick it up INSTANTLY... at any point. At any time. No matter what actor you put up there - no matter how you design the TARDIS - no matter what color the Daleks are - it's ALWAYS been Doctor Who.

And shouldn't it BE Doctor Who - rather than another slick, edgy, shakey-cam-ridden sci-fi barf-fest that Netflix, Hulu, Amazon and CBS are so good at churning out?

If people are looking to the new producer - the new writers - the new era to become Doctor Torchwood The School Who? You WILL be disappointed. I guarantee it; a lot of people walked into the last season expecting the gay character and the Doctor grounded on Earth to be a new edgy take on Doctor Who; it wasn't. It was brilliant - it was interesting - lots of new ideas - some good - some bad - but it was STILL Doctor Who. RTD - in his first season? Didn't even take the Doctor off Earth. The second series? They left Earth three times... and, really, only two when you realize New Earth is just Earth with apple grass http://files.b1.jcink.com/html/emoticons/tongue.gif even in the beginning it wasn't edgy - it wasn't dark - 'oh! He killed Cassandra' except the Doctor had killed - and a LOT more cruelly - before... even before the Time War. In the ACTUAL beginning? The start of the show? The first Doctor, wanted to beat a caveman to death http://files.b1.jcink.com/html/emoticons/tongue.gif he was STOPPED! There was a speech - a lesson - SHOWING him that was wrong. There were consequences for his actions - and a happy ending - and then they went traveling again. Sound familiar? The third Doctor used guns - FREQUENTLY - his violence. His controlling nature - all that? Yeah... got him killed. Not that he learned from that, really - the Fourth tried to blow Davros up - TWICE!!!! People keep getting excited because this new writer was on Torchwood; folks... this is the guy who wrote 42, The Hungry Earth, Cold Blood, Pond Life, the Power of Three and Dinosaurs on a Spaceship... a living sun... dino-humans from the Dawn of Time... the Ood butler stalking Amy and Rory... evil boxes... and dinosaurs on a space ship...

Yeah, much adulty - very mature - non-fantasy...

But then... having never been that big a fan of the RTD era - never mind Torchwood - again... not the best person to come to.

To paraphrase - every era is made up of good episodes and bad episodes... the good episodes... DON'T always soften the bad ones; but vice versa the bad episodes don't ruin the good ones - the brilliant characters - the BEAUTIFUL stories - the crazy ideas - the GOOD episodes... they're there. They can't be ruined and there's a lot to enjoy if you approach it as just... something to enjoy. Like a kid - like someone seeing something for the first time - like the Doctor himself... just GO with it! Just run with it - always laugh - because it's ALWAYS funny! Stories like School Reunion. Like The Empty Child. Like Fires of Pompeii. Like Vincent and the Doctor. Like Closing Time. Like Cold War. Like Mummy on the Orient Express - like last season - like this season - like the seasons to come... there's parts to enjoy. Ya know what? The treatment of Luke in the Last Jedi? The relatively lacking screentime given to Leia - never mind Chewbacca? Sucked... wanna know what else? Loved the movie. Rose Tyler was the most over-the-top perfect-as-fuck character in the ENTIRE history of the canon... and absolutely fun as hell in series one - and one of the best parts of the Day of the Doctor. RTD wrote some of the most RIDICULOUSLY stupid episodes ever - seriously; I would RATHER watch Matt Smith's Air Guitar (obviously Twelve's mad guitar skills bleeding backwards) on a PERMANENT loop if it meant I never had to see Love and Monsters again... but DAMNED if I don't love the Waters of Mars - Turn Left - Smith and Jones or Death of the Doctor.

Doctor Who may try new ideas - it'll probably try to go forward - it will ALWAYS challenge us with both good and bad episodes... but it won't ever be an adult program. At the end of the day the Doctor is going to be a hero. At the end of the day the Daleks are going to be the bad guys. It won't be edgy or gritty or dark - there won't be shakey-cam or hot Time Lord sex in the TARDIS (companion sex, sure - apparently more frequently than we thought) or dark stories where everyone dies and the Doctor goes running off in the TARDIS after murdering most of the crew because of an overdose of cocaine http://files.b1.jcink.com/html/emoticons/tongue.gif not only because that's NOT Doctor Who - but because - even in the old series - he always saves someone. Always. He promised Susan - he promised Donna - he promised Clara - at the very least - ALWAYS someone. And, sometimes, everyone.

The next era won't be edgy or dark - I will bet that for any amount of money anyone wants to name. If that's a problem for folks; I'm sorry. I am. Really. Not just for them - but for the show because it's NEVER going to be what they want it to be. Granted, I don't know what made people think it ever WOULD be that kind of program - or what mirror universe they spent time in where it WAS that kind of program... but, best not to question, I guess.

I will tell you one thing - one thing I know for a fact. The new era? It won't be quiet - it won't be safe - and it won't be calm... but I tell you what it will be.

The trip of a life time.

And now, after that rant, what did I think of the episode? Ah... well.

QUOTE
Not what you ran away from... what were you running to?

That's rather a good question...

There is good... and there is evil... I left Gallifrey to answer a question of my own. By any analysis - evil SHOULD always win. Good is NOT a... practical survival strategy. It requires... loyalty. Self-Sacrifice and, er... love. So... why does good prevail? What keeps the balance between good and evil in this... APPALLING universe? Is there some kind of logic? Some kind of... mysterious force?


Did you ever think, Doctor, that it wasn't the MASTER who changed... but you?That scene - oh... so logical! So... ruthless! Analytical... he left Gallifrey because he was bored with their answers - because he was afraid of the future - and because he was going to DISSECT the universe; so he could explain WHY good functions - how it continues to survive... and he took his granddaughter along...

And he ended up BECOMING that force - that 'good' - he was trying to understand... that's REALLY ironic, when you think about it. I mean, Ten liked to remember the 'Time Lords of old' (who hadn't existed since Omega - let's be honest) but REALLY they were a buggerly lot - dusty... boring... senators. He ran out there to do what his race always did; to cut 'good' up and apply cold hard logic to it... and good - time itself - ended up making him its champion.

I also liked the poke at the fans - complaining that there was too much Fantasy in the Moffat era. Too much 'Fairy Tale' logic...

QUOTE
You were right, you know? The universe generaly fails to be a fairy tale.

But that's where we come in


I was surprised how much sense the Captain ended up making - especially since it turns out her was an ancestor of the Brigadier. Who else besides River Song has a time line as closely tied with the Doctor - ALL the Doctor's - than the Brigadier? I'm even willing to ignore that they accidentally used the name of the Brigadier's great UNCLE instead of his ACTUAL great-grandfather - who has never actually had a name http://files.b1.jcink.com/html/emoticons/tongue.gif seriously - I figured this out after ten minutes of googling - dafuq? http://files.b1.jcink.com/html/emoticons/laugh.gif

And then - of course - they actually bothered to explain Twelve's motivation for wanting to die. Not some clap-trap like we got with Ten where he just loved himself so much http://files.b1.jcink.com/html/emoticons/tongue.gif he's just... tired... how much more... well, 'human' can you get than that? Eventually - so they say - we all get to that point... but imagine getting to that point thirteen - going on FOURTEEN - times. Just about every Doctor has been ready for the end - especially Doctor's like three, eight, five and eleven. A proper end. Nine said it best - maybe it's time. The fact that he's just... tired? I understand that.

And all the call-backs to previous music - ESPECIALLY the slow version of Doomsday that they snuck in when they landed on a certain former-banana grove (did you catch that nod, fans? Ha!) and I hope we don't have to wait two years - AGAIN - to get this soundtrack http://files.b1.jcink.com/html/emoticons/tongue.gif and, of course, Clara... which means she DID meet her end - which means the Time Lords DID fix the Doctor's mess... very bitter-sweet but not over the top. Not perfect - but a good tying up. And, once again, they blow the TARDIS up http://files.b1.jcink.com/html/emoticons/tongue.gif all those poor books... oh! The regeneration was very... shocky this time - nice to see the close up of his eyes being the last we see of him since that's also the FIRST we saw of him http://files.b1.jcink.com/html/emoticons/tongue.gif and the ring falling off - not only a nice homage to Eleven and his bow tie but also to the Second Doctor spending parts of his first act trying to wear the First Doctor's ring http://files.b1.jcink.com/html/emoticons/tongue.gif

The whole sequence itself was also a nice nod to how THIS Doctor started - not knowing who he was. Not knowing what he was. Forgetting so many things - it took him a DAMNED long time to actually settle in to being the Doctor; but simply into the basic knowledge... that hate... is always foolish... and love? Love is always wise. A really proper torch-passing - ya know? Here's what I got wrong... here's what I got right... don't louse it up http://files.b1.jcink.com/html/emoticons/laugh.gif

A smashing episode - probably the best regeneration we've had in a LONG time. Definitely the best christmas episode we've had since the Husbands of River Song.

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Run like HELL - because you always NEED to
Laugh at EVERYTHING - because it's always FUNNY

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Never be CRUEL - and never be COWARDLY
And if you EVER are - always make AMENDS
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Jack Harkness
 Posted: Dec 28 2017, 06:34 AM
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Nica // Offline
25 posts
2169 years old
Torchwood Cardiff
Team Leader
See you in hell!
Children of Earth


QUOTE
I was surprised how much sense the Captain ended up making - especially since it turns out her was an ancestor of the Brigadier. Who else besides River Song has a time line as closely tied with the Doctor - ALL the Doctor's - than the Brigadier?


Absolutely agreed. I like Mark Gatiss as an actor (although Professor Lazarus was a bit, well, strange XD), I played Mycroft for nearly three years in a rpg. The Captain really felt human. The shock in his face when Twelve said, they were landed in World War ONE and explains how he knows that (the uniforms and so on), without even realizing what this one tiny word implied. Goosebumps <3 And I always loved the Brigadier. Not just that romanticized callback version NewWho nods to sometimes, but the real one from classic era. Shoot first, ask questions later. Yes, the Doctor influenced him, maybe even softened him a little, but he never lost his touch, his dry wit. Geez, I'd like to rewatch Classic Who now. http://files.b1.jcink.com/html/emoticons/blink.gif

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Doctauri
 Posted: Dec 28 2017, 06:48 AM
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Doctauri // Offline
57 posts
29 years old
Announcer
For Our Lord and Master
Awesome and TERRIFYING
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Wasn't really NuWho that softened him up - in Battlefield he not only tried to stop the fighting with talking; but he was recognized as a warrior who'd 'learned a better way' - and ended up saving the day not because of a refusal to 'ask questions later' - but because he thought getting himself killed was the only way to save the Doctor AND the planet.

The last time we saw the Brigadier (the Five Doctors - Battlefield - not to mention the audio adventures like the Specter of Lanyon Moor where he meets Six) he really had started to lose his 'shoot first' motif... hell, in Mawdryn Undead (his last PROPER episode - if the confusing UNIT timeline are to be believed) he was a MATHS teacher - one of the reasons Twelve couldn't see Danny as a maths teacher, maybe? http://files.b1.jcink.com/html/emoticons/laugh.gif

His daughter saying that he thought science should lead wasn't just something they made up...maybe all that shooting first caught up with him - and he started to ask questions?
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